Sunt o somitate in domeniu. Reproduc aici doua raspunsuri extrem de lungi de pe un site.
Question 1: Can Hungary and Transylvania re-unite?
Answer:
Not actually answering the question, but some side philosophy.
The
question at hand is “Can Hungary and Transylvania re-unite?”. Let’s
analyze each word a part so we can understand it completely.
- “Can” - it’s a thing that is made possible with certain conditions, either internal - coming from Hungary or Transylvania itself - or external - coming from the Western powers (and Alliances, like NATO, EU and so on).
- “Hungary” - somebody is talking about a present day country that might be very different than what it was in the past.
- “Transylvania” - this is a region that belongs now to Romania. Most of the people believe now days that it should belong to either Romanian or Hungary, reason is the large both numbers of both of the populations and its history blended with both.
- “re-unite” - this is an interesting word that assumes Transylvania was united before with Hungary or in some kind of partnership.
Then,
lets not forgot some important comments. Besides the ones that are,
pardon my french, dumb, like the question analogies with “can pigs fly?”
or “can a broken egg come back in one piece?”, that are suggesting
“it’s possible, but not very likely”, bear no intellectual relevance to
the question at hand, there are some good ones:
A Yes/No question - HOW INTERESTING!They generate Yes/No answers - FASCINATING!
and the most rational and profound one:
They already are, its called the European Union.
Strangely
enough, these answers have been collapsed. I guess people just want
nationalistic yes/no answers. That’s easy when you are ignorant.
Lets
not fall into the trap of ignorance (that will lead eventually to
fake/forged history, propaganda and nationalistic ideas) and read some
brief historical facts - in order to keep this succinct, I will not
provide any links/proofs and resume just to state facts forward.
- One millennia ago, Hungary was an artificial creation, created by ink, a pen and a feather, in order to keep away or there the incoming nomadic waves of populations and to prevent destruction of Western cities - like the Huns did. Thus, multiple European Powers (including the Church) threw lots of money into the fabrication of Hungary and the Pope baptized their leaders in order to cement the alliance. If you look at a map of Hungary around year 1000 you will see how ridiculous the situation was: an incredible vast territory acknowledged in writing by everybody. A territory that wasn’t even populated and the small number of the populations living were of various ethnicity. Nationalists say: “looked at us that day!” not actually understanding that Hungary then was worth as much as being drawn on a paper map and people then have no connection with the Hungarians now. But it worked. A dominant class imposed the language. Lots of immigrants, similar like US now days, came in and became assimilated. Hungarians today have no genetic similarity with the Huns or Magyars back then. They look like, what a surprise (NOT), similar with any of the people living next to them (neighbor countries). During this expansion, they wanted more land, so they looked east, at Transylvania. They named it Erdély - which in Hungarian means “The country beyond the forest”, hence the translation in Latin Trans Sylvania - “over the forrest”. The name of the region literally describe their relations back then with it. Transylvania wasn’t part of Hungary; it was a separate land (which included people, especially non-Hungarian speaking).
- Next historical event is recorded by Hungarian scribes. Local leaders, over counties or small areas, like dukes, are mentioned in Transylvania. They were described as poor, not organized and no good administration. They were Vlach and Slav origin (proto-Romanians) and they bear the title cneaz (Slav etymology). Most of them were defeated by the Hungarian origin leaders, though the local nobility persisted. These Hungarian descent leaders ruled Transylvania. Separated of Hungary. They literally even fought against Hungary to protect their place. Transylvania was still… apart of Hungary. Meanwhile, Romanians are being attested in the area and their number grew more and more - around year 1200. This is important because this official document attests them more like “romance language speaking people, as opposed to Hungarian language speakers”, because they weren’t an ethnic group. Romanians, as Hungarians, are a mixture of local people, Slavs and some other nomadic populations coming from Asia, probably very similar with Magyars themselves, most notably the Cumans. The last integrated everywhere, perhaps in equal proportions in both Hungary and Romania. Vlachs - the highest percentage forming the Romanian background, they weren’t local, they were romance language speaking shepherds (proto-Romanian language) and they gave the language to these people by bringing it from south of Danube, from the Roman Empire - which means they were somewhat superior. People were kind of the same and there wasn’t this idea of a nation state - different populations would simply live under other powers, not caring or being content with the idea, exactly how we today are working for multi-national corporations: nobody is saying now “omg, I’m not going to work of a German or Japanese owned company!”
- Mongol invasion and then Mongol retreat in 12–13th century; people suffered a break in developing themselves and developing countries. However, as soon as the Mongols were gone, they left empty places of power and administration - there were easily filled. It was like changing the owner (that was the founder) of a company. First feudal states take place, taking advantage of this, like south of Transylvania: Wallachia - kingdom of Vlachs. Hungary the same.
- Around 14th century the dynasty of Anjou take places in Hungary - it’s the period where the first nationalistic conflicts take place (and set further on) between Romanians and Hungarians. This is because the dynasty, as opposed to the welcoming start-up era of Hungary, which was very positive and beneficial for anybody, they approached the situation with violence, trying to assimilate by force the Romanians (and everybody). They had the exact same idea of expansionism (even today all of the Hungarians nationalists are imperialist as well), but a totally different and bad tactic. Obviously it didn’t worked. The separation between Hungarians and Romanians grew, especially because of religion. Do not underestimate the religion; as an example, the different religion in British Islands back in the day caused centuries of hacking/unrest and tens of thousands dead between different populations (Irish - English, Scottish - English). It probably happened the same - however, no records = no memory.
- Meanwhile, the Germans (Saschen and Svaben) are building the cities of Transylvania. They’ve been brought around 12th century as a barrier against incoming waves, especially the Mongols - many of them courageously perished against them. However, they brought crafts, the industry of the day and urban life. No Hungarian or Romanian ever built any of the Transylvania’s cities. Romanians were purely rural people, they didn’t even write (that’s the cause of lacking many of events of their history). Hungarians, since they had positions of power dating way back from the original Huns, started naming the cities, either by translating their name from German, either coining another name. They also integrated better in the cities. The word in Romanian for “city” - oras - has its roots in the Hungarian word Vasarhely - which explains a lot. More on Germans: these people lived in a parallel world, not actually overlapping on the culture of Hungarians or Romanians. They lived in Sieben Burgen - 7 Cities - their name of Transylvania. They didn’t had any quarrels with Hungarians and Romanians; they were up to business, working, building their stuff, and not actually involved in politics or hating/suppressing other groups by terms of religion and language. A very good example now days is Herta Muller - a German writer, descendant of these people, born and raised in Romania, winner of the Nobel prize. When the Romanian Writers Union tried to offer a seat among them she refused. Because she doesn’t have a Romanian identity; she doesn’t identify with Romania, as a Romanian, and she has no connection whatsoever with the other Transylvanian people. She has been born and raised in Sieben Burgen. Worlds do not overlap. It’s strange how the people that literally built urban Transylvania are not consider themselves Transylvanians and have no claim over the region, and today they vanished.
- Going forward, we reach the era of influence of the older Austrians; this will take place for centuries (almost a millennia) under the most popular name: Habsburgic Empire. Please note that they were dominant, however, Hungarians liked the idea, and they even declared themselves “partners” in this Empire, continuously forging their history “side-by-side” with the Powers. However, real history is different. It was similar with Puerto Rico, different people wanted to be ruled and developed by a superior administration for evident benefits. In these times, Transylvania was part of Habsburgic Empire. Lots of institutions and administrations were developed from them - which caused high levels of urban life and trust - things that we can see even today: this is the most developed region of Romania. Transylvania had some Austrian leaders, and some very few Hungarians - again, in that time there weren’t state nations, but it was clearly who was in charge. Transylvania was still governed as an autonomous region or somehow acknowledged as part of Hungary, given the fact the Hungary itself was as part of (under) the Empire. Hungarians actually believe it’s their merits; all of great men of this, indeed, glorious era, were… different ethnicity or under clear influence of Austria. Writers, composers, politicians etc. They still believe that they are a great kingdom (and not just the Habsburgs playing the game) and keep trying to grow larger by assimilating with force. 60% of the Hungarian Kingdom was of different nations, like Romanians, Serbs and so on, areas that the Empire gave them to them. But they still continue with the same bad tactics: Romanians are being persecuted, they are not allowed to have schools, they are not allowed to speak their language and sporadic violent clashes with deaths take place. These are never recorded - Romanians didn’t write, Hungarians couldn’t write that kind of stuff. Shame that even now stories like 600 civilian bodies of women, old men and children, under a mound right now, and people now days never learn their own history. Some areas of Transylvania get colonized by Hungarian speaking populations - some of the villages even bear the name “colony” until today. We have massive emigration of Romanians in the other Romanian regions or other countries, fleeing maltreatment. There were also families forced to leave (deporting) them to the other Romanian countries.
- Thus, we reach year 1825. Transylvanian Hungarian - Romanian relationships are nasty. A Romanian hero is born and he’s Avram Iancu of Transylvania- he is like William Wallace of Scotland, on a lower level. Please note that Austrians had enough of Hungarian BS - they were keep claiming their Kingdom and keep telling their “victories” and “merits” everywhere, instead of behave like a dominated nation. Thus, Austrians get upset; and they also didn’t want Hungary grow stronger - no danger coming from the Mongols anymore. Austria wanted Hungary - this artificial country - to break away. Please understand that they were still in charge and still make the games. Avram Iancu had help from Austria to violently fight against Hungarians and start fighting for Romanian rights in Transylvania. Otherwise he couldn’t do anything by himself. No matter how much Romanian nationalists will tell you about him, he was just like the Hungary Kingdom: running with Austrian batteries. This year is of great importance for Romania: it’s flag is set (blue, yellow, red) and all of its 3 main regions unite under one name: Romania. It’s hymn is been written. Incredible quick national identity is formed, transmitted from one to the other like smallpox, in the shadow of the great danger - Hungary, with the help of public speakers of incredible great quality. It’s like everybody became Romanian and proud Romanian over-night. We must mention here the Transylvanian School - a group of intellectuals, that fought this ideological war. They also coined up the idea that Romanians are the divine combination of Dacians and Romans - to make them feel entitled over the land and claim Transylvania as a primordial land already settle by proto-Romanians before the nomadic waves like Huns, Magyars and so on. This propaganda was so strong that even persists today and most of Romanians do believe it’s true! We cannot blame them too much; Hungarian imperialism was too strong and violent - they weren’t a constructive positive force as Austrians. While this was obviously very important for Romanians, please note that Transylvania, though it had most of the time the majority of Romanians, it was incredible diverse. It had a lot of Hungarians and Germans. Jewish minority was present, too, like a few more other Balkanic ones. Transylvania wasn’t “a Romanian province” how Romanians like to called it, but it was still… kind of a world apart. This was a historical mistake for autonomy of Transylvania and it’s due to the local Hungarians. These people didn’t saw themselves as Transylvanians; they still had the identity of Hungarians from Hungary and wanted to “unite” with Hungary (you can even see the same idea persisting today: Hungary started to award citizenship to Hungarians living in Transylvania a few years ago and literally a few days ago Transylvanian Hungarians adopted their local flag: same as Hungary’s - which is ridiculous, but not ridiculous when nationalistic imperialistic propaganda brain-washes the people). Thus, when Romanians, with Avram Iancu in front, decided the course of Transylvania, they did so without consulting any of the other populations: Hungarians and Germans and so on. Again: these other-than-Romanian populations were over 60% of total people living in Transylvania. Obviously, instead of becoming independent, Romanians, benefiting by protection of Austria, choose to “unite” with Romania, hoping for some protection from their brothers (of the same language, genetic material and religion) against the terror of “uniting” with Hungary. They all knew the aggression against the Romanians, the lack of rights, the view of them as an inferior nation will continue under Hungary dominance. It’s kind of funny that without Hungarian oppression the national pride and conscience of Romania would never had that burst and force.
- the rest is history… During the two world wars Transylvania was taken by Hungary and then taken back by Romania. Hungary never got its claws on it, though. They still continued with forced assimilation, for the short period of time when they were in charge, even more brutally, changing Romanian names to Hungarian names and banning Romanian language. Hate was there. After the second World War, because Romania was nazi (Hungary was even nazier) in the first place, all Jews were gone. Not necessarily killed or deported, just… gone. Most Jews had money and were academic/cultural people, Romanians weren’t that inclined in trading these people to the Nazis, so they ambiguously selected some of them (Romania officially recognized now days that it conducted this and officially said sorry to the Jewish international community), but not in an industrial massive way. They delivered more Gypsies (Roma population) rather than anything other. The country that had 800.000 Jews now has like 6000. During the communists years, the dictator Nicolae Ceausescu literally sold to Germany (that was in reconstruction after the war) the Transylvanian Germans. Some of them there still are today, but not as many and not that relevant (current president of Romania is a German ethnicity man). So we have 2 large minorities that vanished. Funny fact: even in the first years of communism Transylvania was called “Autonomous Region of Transylvania”. Communism tried to recover by kind of doing the same thing, but with lesser violence (almost non-existent, yes, some beatings, yes, some jailing, but not actually killing and forcing to move to Hungary - by the contrary, they wanted more people) and tried to colonize some areas with Romanians from Moldova, also changing forcefully the Hungarian names in Romanian names, changing the demographics, however, this was extremely low extend of the way around, because communists didn’t had the resources to do better, and also on an extremely shorter span of time.
- So the present make up is Hungarian and Romanian and Roma (Gypsies) with separate cultures each, the later don’t matter officially because they don’t integrate and don’t actually contribute to the society. Hungarians still believe that they lost Romania because of the Trianon Treaty (there’s literally no nationalistic person not to mention this) because they truly believe that a country can be born or collapse because of some paperwork - I mean, it worked in the past near year 1000 and then with the Austrian bureaucracy, why wouldn’t it work right now - but this thing is naive and foolish. If it wasn’t for Trianon, Kingdom of Hungary it would simply collapsed into the same result, either in absence or presence or lesser treaties and local independence. Romania literally got its independence from Ottoman Empire like that: not a word, document, anything, it just simply didn’t worked anymore like that. Countries became nation countries. These Hungarian nationalists even go further and state something like “hopeful now the EU will make “justice” for Hungarians in Transylvania and will allow to represent themselves and etc”, the same manner how the Western Powers put them as leaders over territories that didn’t belonged to them in the first place. It’s like a kid calling his older brother to beat the other kids. And forgetting that EU literally means equal rights citizens everywhere! Hungarians and Romanians can literally swap places and live and work legally anywhere, because they are both in EU! Imperialist and nationalist ideology is imbued in the Hungarian culture; any Hungarian that is patriot or cares about is automatically a nationalist, which is a strange case of national identity - it’s more similar to Middle East culture than to any European. You can do an easy experiment: go to any of their cultural institutions (embassies, city halls, museums, churches etc) and you will see 100% of the cases the picture of the Big Hungary hang on the wall. As a comparison, this is like Nazi Germany or British Empire have maps with their highest peak territory hang on their walls now. It might be cool back in the day, but now it’s offensive to a lot of people, Croats, Slovaks, Serbs, Ukrainians and especially Romanians. And the irony, they victimize themselves and say “these are the lands taken from us!” - not understanding that those were lands of other people where they tried forcefully to assimilate them.
So as conclusion,
if you read very careful this small synthesis you realize you put an
illegal question. Hungary isn’t what you think; Transylvania wasn’t what
you think. Transylvania wasn’t “united” and do not require to be so,
but its course was preponderate autonomous, with lots of Hungarian and
Romanian leaders, and with an overwhelming all together number of
Austrian leaders. Also, it was inhabited by cultures that didn’t
overlapped and it was like people living in different worlds:
Hungarians, Germans, Romanians, Jews, Roma. Still not answering your
question:
- a unification with Hungary would require a massive amount of Hungarians living inside of it, like it happened with Kosovo, or, why not, with Transylvania itself, it’s “united” with Romania just because of the majority of Romanians there.
- Obviously, western Powers have no reason to mess with this and declare Transylvania part of another country than Romania.
- Obviously, Hungary is not rich, cultural, powerful enough to be an attraction for the people (any ethnicity) of Transylvania to become like them, but by the contrary.
- To be autonomous, well, that’s tricky, because this thing is historically missed and broken by Hungarians - they take full blame for it, for considering themselves superior over Romanians and trying to assimilate them with violence and force. It will require Transylvanian Hungarians consider themselves Transylvanians first, as well as Romanians different of the other Romanians, and have a positive culture of assimilation and identity. For instance, we all talk today English because we watched Hollywood movies, cartoons, listen to songs and so on, not because US actually forced us to. Even before that, colonies would rather learn English from the British Empire, not quite forced to learn it. It was an attraction and a desire to “be like them” of the locals.
- There’s much to be said. Further experiment: you can look the etymology of “bozgor” and “vlach” and you will understand the divine origin of these people that share Transylvania today and also their relationship between them and who is more entitled to this land on the premise that “I was first in Transylvania”.
TL; DR: your question is illegal and ignorant and it cannot be answered.
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| JUSTICE FOR BOZGORS! |
Question 2: When will Romania give back Hungarian territories still populated by Hungarians?
Answer:
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